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Crippling Strike Critical Thinking

Criticals Edit

Is this damage multiplied for a critical attack? DaBear 10:17, 16 Nov 2005 (PST)

  • no--Defunc7 14:04, 16 Nov 2005 (PST)

Weapons Edit

Removed the note about Melee weapon since i tested it unarmed and it worked just fine.

Test: Hit your henchmen with a sneak attack and you will see that that henchmen will lose two in strength even if you are unarmed. There is no combat log for this feat.--CID-78 03:42, 22 January 2006 (PST)

  • I think that note was referring to the fact that it doesn't work with ranged weapons. Not unarmed attacks. good point though. It is really melee attacks that count and not weapons. -- Jjjhhhlll 14:22, 22 January 2006 (PST)

save? Edit

is there a save for this? and what imunities besides to criticals and sneak atack would prevent this? --68.99.215.245 22:09, 16 September 2006

  • There's no save. Immunity to level/ability drain should make you immune.--Kamiryn 05:50, 19 September 2006 (PDT)
  • Hm, this isn't a supernatural/magical ability drain. Crippling strike deals direct physical damage to limbs/tendons. So if immunity to level/ability drain makes you immune to crippling strike effect, which i doubdt, it's a bug.--PrimeEvil 13:23 GMT, 17 May 2009

Cumulative Edit

Is this a cumulative reduction? --Tuskin 01/04/07

  • Not sure if this is part of the 1.69 patch, but after testing I have found out that there is a reduction cap of 30 ability damage. Should this be worth noting? (Most creatures will not have a strength over 33, but in a PvP type setting, this could affect the feat's value) 173.66.192.68 23:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Duration Edit

What's the duration on this ? Is it permanent ? What does it take to recover from it ? --24.203.5.88 14 February 2009

  • From what I've observed (but not carefully tested), the ability loss is permanent and not removed by resting. The restoration line of spells heals it. Basically, the ability loss appears to be implemented as a permanent supernatural effect. --The Krit 02:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Flurry Edit

Do all attacks in a sneak attack flurry apply the STR damage? - Aeqvinox (talk) 17:23, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

  • I do not recall verifying that specifically, but I see no reason why it should not be the case. (It would be rather strange for an attack to not deal part of its damage merely because there were other successful attacks in the same flurry.) --The Krit (talk) 18:40, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

I believe that rogues are undervalued in pathfinder.  Lets compare them to melee fighters.  I'll be breaking each class down into roughly equivalent class features and directly comparing them.

Fighters get an extra feat every other level.  Rogues get +d6 sneak attack every other level.

Is sneak attack worth a feat?

To best compare these two class features, let's convert sneak attack into a feat called "Smack Attack."  If a fighter would be benefitted by taking Smack Attack with his extra feats, then sneak attack is worth that class feature.

Smack Attack:  You deal an extra 3.5 damage on all attacks when your target is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC or being flanked by you.  This damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.  You may take this feat multiple times, and its effects stack.

3.5 damage is a huge amount of damage when it comes to feat given bonuses.  In my games at least, melee fighters are attacking with one of the Smack Attack conditions at least half the time.  To give Rogues a disadvantage in this comparison, let's round it down to an even 50%.  If they got the Smack Attack bonus half of the time, then Smack attack would add an average of 1.75 damage per swing.

A feat that does an average of 1.75 additional damage to every hit.  Would I take that feat?  Yes, yes I would.  I'd take it till the cows come home.

Smack Attack activates more frequently than Precise Strike and isn't a teamwork feat.

Smack Attack deals just .25 less than Power Attack, but without the -1 penalty to attack.

Granted, with more feats fighters can make more flexible builds.  But it usually doesn't take more than four or five interesting feats to make the a build concept.  After that, I'd add on Smack Attacks any day.

Verdict: Tie at the very least, but my personal advantage goes to the Rogue.  A feat that gives 3.5 damage to each hit when flanking?  Give it to me.


By Level 20, Fighters get 5 more Bab and 20 more HP.  Rogues get 120 more skill points.

Is a point of BAB and 4 health worth 24 skill points?


Or, per level, is .25 BAB and 1 HP worth 6 skill points?

I'd gladly trade a single point of BAB and 4 HP for 24 skill points, and I'd be hard pressed to think of a fighter build that wouldn't be benefitted by doing this at least a couple of times.  Skills are useful in combat - perception, acrobatics, climb, stealth, handle animal, even intimidate and bluff can all add significantly to the combat abilities of a melee character.

Consider all of those times you are deciding between 1 HP or 1 Skill Point for your favored class bonus.  What if that were 1 HP and 1/4 BAB or 6 Skill Points?

Looked at another way, if 1 HP and 1 Skill Point are roughly equivalent (both potential favored class bonuses), then is .25 BAB worth 5 Skill Points?

Over four levels, a +5% to hit and 4 HP VS a +5% to succeed at 24 different skills (or a +10% to succeed at 12 different skills, or a +20% to succeed at 6 different skills, or a +40% to succeed at 3 different skills)?  That seems obvious.

As a cherry on top, Rogues have 22 class skills, while Fighters only have 10. That's a difference of 36 potential skill points.

Verdict: Tie for those who simply cannot figure out how to use skills in combat, and do not care about anything outside of combat.  For everybody else the Rogue has a significant advantage.


Fighters get heavy armor and marital weapon proficiency, armor training, and weapon training. Rogues get 4 rogue talents, 6 advanced rogue talents, evasion and uncanny dodge.
Are the Rogue's miscellaneous features equal to the Fighter's miscellaneous features?

Let's run through them.  I'll convert them to an approximate value of feats based on similar existing feats if possible.

Heavy Armor Proficiency is great, but Rogues can get it with two feats.  They wouldn't want to, but for the sake of argument I'll list this as 2 Feats.

Martial Weapon Proficiency is good, but if you want to use a specific weapon you can take proficiency as a feat. 1 Feat.

Armor Training is good, but can usually only gain an additional AC or two given a normal Fighter Dexterity. 2 Feats (such as dodge)

Weapon Training is great, granting an additional +4 to attack and damage with your primary weapon by level 17.  No arguing with that. 6 Feats (4 weapon focus, 2 weapon specialization)

That's about 11 Feats worth of bonuses for the Fighter, give or take a handful.

Rogue Talents are notably underwhelming, but remember that all four of them can be converted to feats that the rogue needs (Combat Trick, Finesse Rogue, Weapon Focus, and Ninja Trick>Combat Trick). If you don't like any talents, simply make them feats.   4 Feats.

Advanced Rogue Talents are much better.  One is equivalent to a feat (Feat), several others are at least as strong as feats (Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion,), and many of the rest are about equivalent (Stand Up,  Armor Mastery, Terrain Mastery, Trap Spotter).  6 Feats.

Evasion is fantastic, and has saved the skin of many a Rogue.  However, I'll call it one feat for the sake of argument. 1 Feat.

Uncanny Dodge is super situational but worth mentioning.  However, its not strong enough to give it a full feat. 0 Feats.

That's about 11 Feats worth of bonuses for the Rogue, give or take a handful.

Verdict:  Tie (well the fighter is one down, but that is close enough).  Weapon training is really floating the Fighter here, but it's hard to compete with all of the talents.  Given that all four rogue talents can be converted directly into feats, and there are many excellent advanced rogue talents, I feel that the talents class feature gets an unnecessarily bad reputation.

Conclusion

Overall we have a tie, although for each individual comparison I would favor the rogue.  I'd rather have Sneak Attack than the extra feats.  I'd rather have 6 skill points per level than a quarter BAB and a single hit point.  And I'd rather have 5 feats from rogue talents, 5 rogue talents, evasion and uncanny dodge than heavy armor proficient, martial weapon proficiency, armor training, and weapon training.